Gautam Ghosh on Light Skin Bias in India

The HR Thought Leader Speaks

I have to apologize to the Indian MBAs. We had a long discussion and, so far, I've only had time to record the first issue I brought up.

This is an interesting topic for me but I don't want anyone to think that it was all I took away from our meeting. As you'll see in the rest of series, these are exemplary guys whom I admire very much.

But since Gautam Ghosh, whom we all know, has picked up the topic of light skin bias, I'd like to let him carry it forward.

I am a fairly dark skinned guy (even by Indian standards) so have faced the brunt of "apartheid" :-)

Yes, we Indians prefer fair-skinned people...and while matrimonial ads get to specify it for women, the same is expected out of a man...however it is not so explicity stated. If the man is a software engineer/doctor with a US visa/green card skin tone is last thing on the girl's parents' mind

This yearning for fair skin is not limited to regions in India but cut across almost all regions. Even in South India, where the majority of the population is dark skinned movie-stars have been very fair skinned.

It's only recently that Indian movies have started to feature actors and actresses with darker skin tones.

On the question why Krishna is blue, well the songs and written words depict him as dark skinned, so to differentiate him from other mortals in the paintings artists started painting him blue. Even Ram, and Vishnu are depicted as blue. Ram and Krishna actually are depicted as incarnations of Vishnu - the creator.

Gautam adds: The difference is that in the US/Canada/European context it becomes a race issue...and that gets a lot of people uncomfortable. But in India, the focus is only on skin tone, and not on 'race' per se.

Comments

[Recruitomatic]

f there was any question as to why we blog, and why we comment, for me, the above post removes any question - see the previous post and comment on this - CH, I can't find them! Not everything learned needs to
be how to recruit this and how to measure that. But if we don't take what we may have learned and find some way to apply it in our recruiting or related worlds what is the point?. Ask many non-Caucasian
races/candidates - of varying skin tones and color - if they have ever experienced bias or even "apartheid" in the UK, US and/or Canada. And the answer is...

Great post.

Amitai

[Gloria White]

Well, as someone who has spent quite a bit of time in India and knows a bit about the 'caste' system, I can attest that skin color in India is closely tied to the caste system. Go to any part of India and invariably the Brahmins (the top of the hierarchy) will be fair colored. And for those who don't know about the caste system, it's apartheid on steroids.

[Canadian Headhunter]

Gloria, a friend of mine recently told me that he visited the friend of a friend in Poona. She's from southern India, very dark-skinned, a PhD and a Brahmin.

I'd read that varna which is the Sanskrit word for caste means colour. And that the higher castes were lighter because they descended from the ancient conquerers of India who came from central Asia.

But my Indian contacts all tell me that Brahmins, the highest caste people, come in all shapes, colours and sizes. And, indeed, last year I met an accountant from India who told me that he's a Brahmin and I couldn't tell him apart from any other Indian by looking at him.

[Recruitomatic]

I believe the "caste mark" worn by many as an adornment on the forhead also denotes caste suggesting color is not a deciding factor as to who one can marry and who one can't touch.

[Gautam]

being a Brahmin has nothing to do with skin color. In fact long ago (think 2 millenia or more ago) the castes intermarried before they became rigid over the last 2000 years

In fact, the castes were evolved out of occupations and therefore are strangely relevant to us "Talent Bloggers"

The Brahmins were the original knowledge workers and the hoarders of secrets to spirituality

The Kshatriyas were the warriors.

The Vaishyas were the businessmen and traders.

The Shudras were the people who were the cleaners and did the menial jobs.

An untouchable was someone outside the caste hierarchy and therefore not entitled to the community's goods and services.

Out of these broad work groups emerged over 2000 years a complex web of castes and sub castes depending on which region you belonged to and what your occupation was and finally to whom you were born.

So caste is essentially about one's identity mark, and occupation, region and father's name all went into making it a rigid system, that has long since outlived its usefulness.

Today we have castes of a different kind however, MBAs and Non-MBAs, Engineers from IITs vs other Engineers vs non-Engineers...software vs other engineers, US Green card holder vs government servant ...

[karen m]

Excellent Post! Amitai your closing comment was even better..

Having lived in the British Commonwealth in my childhood and young adult years, I became very familiar with the Indian Caste System, and the preference to fairer Skin.

But.. this does indeed cross over to many different races. Black, Asian, Latino, Indian, Arabic -- you name it, and the same applies.

I myself as a bi-racial female was considered to be a Yellow Child, growing up.. This truly was to my advantage. No, I didn't have to wait in lines, was often bumped and treated with Reverence on many occassions, just due to the color of my skin.

The same applies in America even today. Take the many of the Popular women in our history- Latinos and Blacks..
Gloria Estefen, Mariah Carey, Halle Berry (considered one of the most beautiful people), Alicia Keys and Colin Powell -- and of course the Creole was considered for many centuries the "better" race amongst the Blacks in the French Quarters..

In fact for many centuries Blacks were broken down based upon the percentage of the Mixed race in their skin.. and their skin tone..

White plus Black = Mulatto
Mulatto plus Black = Sambo
Mulatto plus White = Quadroon
Quadroon plus White = Mustee
Mustee plus White = Mustafing aka Mustafino

I guess it is amazing how similar worlds are even if they are worlds apart

[karen m]

I thought of something else.. one can only look at Michael Jackson and family to realize how some people think that this is still an important aspect (even if misguided) in Today's Society..

[Recruitomatic]

Karen - thanks for sharing. I have two gorgeous girls who are – like their “white” sister in the UK – my biological daughters. Skin color was never an issue for my oldest, but then again, for my youngest two – my own Alicia Keys and Maria Carey –– the assumption in S. Florida is that their mother tongue is Spanish. Another form of stereotyping based on skin color?

When we lived in Miami – a latino city for sure – my wife assumed her rejection as an applicant (cabaret artist/lounge singer) had more to do with her not being fluent in Spanish when the reality was that there were plenty of black-skinned singers who did but who were conspicuously absent from the places where my wife was looking to work.

But, isn’t discrimination something fundamentally human? In the communities where I grew up, among Jamaicans for example, the target of discrimination was not skin color or language – although there were clear preferences – but sexual orientation. Apartheid is apartheid whether the separation is based on skin color, language, sexual orientation, religious persuasion and the list goes on. With this in mind, our concept of “diversity” in the workplace needs to be reexamined if we have to consciously be inclusive to get the right “mix”. That implies reverse discrimination. Either way, it is selection predicated on things other than skills and competencies and experience and, yes, even cultural fit. That’s wrong isn’t it? What use is a workforce that reflects the complexion of the street when the boardrooms reflect an altogether different reality?

Gautam – your clarification of the caste system is perfect. It reminds me that class discrimination – like racial discrimination – while dehumanizing for the individual, is a long standing reality from which have yet to fully emerge. Black skinned, white skinned, light skinned, dark skinned; blue collar, white collar. But you forget – here is color blind America – we also have the National Black MBA Association, National Society of the Hispanic MBA's and other professional groups still demarked along racial and linguistic lines. When we have national association of gay MBA’s perhaps we can have black and white chapters?

All this makes me wonder: What Color is Your Parachute?

[Gautam Ghosh]

I've worked in three US based firms as of now. My understanding is that groups like National Black MBA Association, National Society of the Hispanic MBA's and other professional groups have been instituted to help increase diversity in organizations.

Is that not true?

[Canadian Headhunter]

Hiren comments on Gautam's non-professional blog.

http://tinyurl.com/m2m4b

"I think this is a subjective issue. lots of men find Bipasaha Basu very sexy. Others find Rekha very sexy.

"I remember a leading actor of the Hindi film industry found Smita Patil very hot. So betwen fair skin and otherwise, there are shades of grey."

Bipasaha Basu http://tinyurl.com/lgw9f
Rekha http://tinyurl.com/ononv
Smita Patil http://tinyurl.com/qoa9o

[Recruitomatic]

Yes, that groups like National Black MBA Association, National Society of the Hispanic MBA's and other professional groups have been instituted to help increase diversity in organizations, that it what they would say. I would not. But rather than get too controversial here let me pose a question to you, bring this thread back to beginning - beauty, skin color and all - and answer your question with a question: If it's OK to have a Miss Black America Pageant what's wrong with having a Miss White America Pageant too? How about a white MBA association, or even an association of Aryan MBAs, you know, in the interests of diversity? Hey, we could even bastardize the swastika! Please see http://www.kamat.com/indica/culture/sub-cultures/swastika.htm before posting replies). My point in this is that as recruiters and change agents we have to have an appreciation for the complexities of a thing to be able to simply communicate the solution. Isn't that what MBA's do. Isn't that what (some) blog posts/comments are for?

Just my ramblings, but you’ll have some thoughts I’m sure.

Amitai

[Canadian Headhunter]

Ami from Miami,

When you are outside the mainstream, you have to create a niche organization to get support for your interests from those with whom you have a common bond.

When you are in the majority you don't need to go looking for people who think like you.

[Recruitomatic]

CH - when you say, "outside of the mainstream" it sounds like you're speaking from a traditional, white-world perspective. That is not to say you are wrong or that I am right but mainstream in this context is a relative thing. Have you been to Baltimore recently? Detroit? Atlanta? Miami? How big the is the NBMBA chapter in Sheboygan, WI. I could very easily concede your point if you could answer mine about having a Miss White America beauty pageant or an Association of White MBAs.

For the record: I am not discounting the value that these professional organizations bring for their own alumni and employers at large. I have profited from my association with these groups and hope it continues for a long time to come. However, I’m questioning the double standards we all tolerate in the interests of being politically correct. Indulge me…

Notwithstanding my own remarks elsewhere about off-comment email, Karen M. who comments above sent me some very interesting perspectives on this subject. If she is reading this I hope she feels comfortable sharing her perspectives on racism and double standards from where she sits as as a light-skinned - not white - professional woman. If I plagiarized her remarks here I would be skewered as a racist which I am, most assuredly, not.

Amitai

[Recruitomatic]

Re-redaing your comment, supplemental question: "When you are in the majority you don't need to go looking for people who think like you". Are you implying that people of different races or skin tones, in the context of work and professional association, think diffrently from white people? Who says how "white people" - the mainstream - think should be the standard? I may have completely misunderstood you, I'm sorry if I did.

[karen M]

Ami,
wow, this is really going in an interesting direction.. Actually in regards to the White Versus Black American Pagent.. Well as a Bi Racial (Black Spanish and White) woman, I DO have a problem with that... Indeed, is it not hypocritical to ask for inclusion, in fact Demand it.. but then entice exclusion with Schools, Pagents and Associations?

The Word African American for example. Dang if that doesn't also bother me.. So does Amer Asian and such like.. I am An American; Got my citizenship 3 weeks ago and proud of it.. Yes I came from the Caribbean, but I am not Caribean American.. I am AMERICAN! My heritage is Not Who I am.. I am Who I am.. I am because I am..
When was the last time an African American Was in Africa.. were they Born there? No, not the majority.. so why the terminology..

Why any terminology.. Why not just say Human American. AND why do people get upset with me when I say BiRacial instead of Black or Hispanic.. I am proud of both of My parents, and the Genes they passed.. so why should I have to exclude one or the other by claiming only one Race?

Recruitomatic.. I agree with your comment.. Canadian Headhunter I will also try to give you the benefit of the doubt but that comment was quite a slap in the face..

Sure, my spelling may be a bit off, and I tend to ramble.. and my thoughts may be geared around humanity, ethics and morals; but is that because of my being Black, white, purple, light or Dark? or is it because of personal experience? or maybe because of who I am?

Does the Color of my skin make my identity, mentaliy, views and opinions less than Yours or anyone else?? in some countries I may be considered superior to the White, yet in others lessor.. Why? why is that? In fact does that then not show how superficial this all is? Is it not true that There are just as many famous, intelligent and brilliant people accross the board.. So why then do individuals think that I or anyone who is different need a Group, association or place to feel as though I belong? What is probably the biggest problems is that these associations can perpetuate these thought processes.

Many years ago one was given shock treatment if one were left handed.. Being Left handed was considered being cursed by the Devil.. Parents would do everything and anything to make sure that their child would write with their right.. Today this view has changed.. Will it ever change in regards to the aspect of the color of skin...

It is hard to think it will the EEOC has been around since the '60's yet today there are still 400 employment lawsuits a DAY! We have more now than in the '80's .. go Figure.. guess why conversations like this ARE NECESSARY!

[Canadian Headhunter]

"Canadian Headhunter... that comment was quite a slap in the face.."

I guess I was misunderstood because I didn't say anything that could be construed as offensive re niche organizations.

If the everyone thinks green is the best colour for skin, a purple person is never going to win. So purples have to create a purple pageant.

Likewise, if there is job discrimination against purples then they have to form an organization for concerted action against the prevailing practice.

Can anyone possibly argue with that?

[Gautam]

hi amitai, CH and Karen...

I've never visited the US so my knowledge is extremely far removed from personal first hand experience...but what I have heard that organizations are trying to do is increase diversity in the traditional leadership of these organizations.

I heard such initiatives in Dell, in HP and I read about such initiatives in all the major consulting firms too.

One view would be to segment all the groups and let them exist in silos, whereas the other view would be to create a network where they have a support group for each other and can share their experiences. That's why I believe these minority MBA associations are needed. Their goal is to hope for inclusion into the percieved glass ceiling.

Amitai, there may be no such ceiling in the first place...but perceptions are powerful and imaginary things.

ciao
Gautam

[karen M]

Yes, actually, there was a time that thought was quite prevelant and One race was considered superior, and the other was considered as Animals.. it was called Slavery, then emancipation came about..

Things changed, but much still needed to be done.. then came the 60's and Martin Luther, and the EEOC and other areas were developed to create the opportunity for Equality, Inclusion, equal rights..

To truly fight for equal rights then should we not also try to maintain the inclusion, not exclusion. It is important for me to belong to the world, not to maintain segregation.. Had it not been for much of the changes in society then legally my parents would not have been able to marry and I would not be born.

I feel it is necessary to form alliances with a community that is Diverse, seperate but equal.. Not of just one "kind" or type.. It is how I learn, grow and expand my horizons.. Understand others, and have more empathy.. To keep ourselves segregated, well does that not subjugate ourselves.. We will always maintain marginality through lack of progressive and non conforming collective beliefs.. Especially with a lack of cultural resources, ideology and knowledge

CH.. My apolgies.. I read what was said and was upset, I am sure your intent was not to insult..

[Canadian Headhunter]

Gautam, thanks for your input. I have to admit however that what interested me was that in a non-western, dark-skinned country like India, there could be a fetish for light-skin. I'm getting involved in the North American diversity discussion by default.

Though since you seem to be well-informed maybe you can tell us what is being done in India to prevent bias in hiring.

[Gautam Ghosh]

well CH

the short answer is - nothing.

Because people are not sure if bias in hiring exists due to skin color.

[karen M]

CH, is there an equivalent to the EEOC in Canada? Britain has been making many changes themselves and have initiated laws regarding discrimination in hiring.. Many to come into effect later this year and Next.. Does Canada have legislation? any changes in the horizon?

I wonder especially if one considers that with many of the Baby Boomers Not planning to Retire there is sure to be much more age discrimination occurring.. (that was one of the reasons Britain initiated some of their changes.)

[Canadian Headhunter]

Re EEOC in Canada, I don't know. Good topic for a posting though.

Re Gautam's last remark. A bit of a surprise considering what I thought he said originally. Seems to confirm what the Indian MBAs said: that skin colour in hiring is not an issue. Just in marriage. The guys said it wasn't an issue for men, Gauty said it is but also that earning power trumps it every time.

Will add this to the main posting.

[Recruitomatic]

It seems there are a number of issues here:

1. The bias of skin color in India and how it affects people there. The question is one of skin color not of race
2. The bias (as opposed to prejudice) within the caste system which supposes the differences are drawn on occupational and regional factors
3. The prejudice that “parallels” the caste system outside of India, i.e. in the British Commonwealth but now based on skin color not occupational or regional distinctions
4. The distinctions drawn on linguistic lines paralleling discrimination on skin color The question regarding double standards being applied as evidenced by associations drawn on racial and linguistic lines/reverse discrimination
5. The value of these organizations to promote the interests of “minorities” in the “mainstream”.
6. The broader issues of dehumanization in discussions of race, color as they relate to negative perceptions.
7. How these issues are perpetuated by Black/Hispanic and other types of associations and pageants, etc. – the double edged sword of exclusion in society as opposed to inclusion in the workforce
8. The issue of – and failure of – the civil rights movement and EEOC to overcome the innate need for people to be discriminating – for whatever reason we are.
9. An attempt to revert back to the initial topic which was the fetish for light skin in India

Is this a fair summary? If so, we all need to identify where the common thread is to draw our conclusions as to how this conversation adds value to our understanding of what we should be doing for ourselves and corporately as recruiters.

Amitai

[karen]

Amitai
here is a recruiting question for you and for the others -
Client/boss says
"we need to fill our diversity holes. Find me only a Black Male for this position, noone else.. just a black male"
Now what, are you doing something wrong in accepting this assignment?
Why? or Why Not?
What should you Say or do?
Do you have any obligations?

Now why should this not be a problem? Gee, you are just the recruiter? It is your client right, and you must do what they ask.. Hey, isn't the client always right?

Now take this also in reverse, the client only want's a white male in this position.. Now what.. is this better or worse.. Do we automatically feel uncomfortable because We obviously know that means the client is excluding?

Does Our moral compass really tick more on this request than on the other?

So what is the difference between the two?

As recruiters we are faced with these issues every day.. in regards to the age, sex, religion or nationality.

So I ask, is this conversation really interesting today, because it sparks something internal with each of us? Take how many responses, this has envoked much passion, even hostility at one time by me.. though misguided..

What is it about this that is so intriguing?? or even so important?? I know because I am one who have been discriminated against before.. I know how it feels and I know how frustrating it is..

What also is interesting is that people assume that I am white with my last name being Mattonen, and I will get requests today that I never got before when my former name was Sanchez..

Karen M.

[Recruitomatic]

If asked to undertake an assignment as you describe - black man, nothing else - I would tell the person making the request that he is a moron. Now, if the question was "I need to fill my diversity holes" that begs an entirely different set of questions which would start with ‘What the hell is a diversity hole” and “When did you first find you had one?”

Clients are frequently wrong or unable otherwise they wouldn’t be engaging me to help them. I fix problems that clients create on their own, or cannot overcome without help. Even so, if a client asks me to do something which is fundamentally wrong I’ll tell the client so and he can decide whether he wants to engage me first, to define the problem, and then to agree what solutions are possible. We would also need to agree my fee.

Client asks for a white male, and only a white male. I ask: Will I do?

You ask what is the driver behind this conversation is and that is the real issue. Whatever it is, unless it has an application for each one of us this may be a lot of huff-n-puff. I guess the reason the subject resonates in each of us is because: CH is a white man asking questions that are bound to trigger an emotive response in someone because they are latently chauvinistic; Guatum is the only one qualified to answer the original question because he is an Indian with an MBA – although apparently he doesn’t have an answer to the underlying question of race and prejudice and obsession with skin tone; you because you have experienced and experience and will continue to experience racism despite your own self-perception and humanity; and me because I am a white man with a black family who has traveled to India and fancies himself as a blogger. All of this begs the next question – so what?

For me the answer is simple – we all want to be heard. Blogging and comments afford us that opportunity. We can be right or wrong. It hardly matters. Also, blogging affords us the opportunity to connect with people who we were already connected to through common experiences and outlooks on life who we would otherwise never have met had it not been for the chance posting of a casual question about why do Indians have a fetish for light skin. You and I have connected in a very personal way. For me that is mission accomplished. This thread is exhausted for me. But our friendship will now begin. What more could I ask for? To find someone who can relate to me and who I can relate to in the real world, not this oddly morphing forum.

Perhaps Gautum knows more about me than he did before. Perhaps he will respond differently when he sees me leaving a comment for him. I hope we have connected too in some way even though I don’t have an MBA and disagree with him about glass ceilings. There was no glass ceiling for Colin Powell – struggles yes – but no limits on his achievement. Could he have achieved what he did with a darker complexion. We’ll never know but sure can speculate.

As for the Canadian Headhunter, well I’ll leave that for another place. It’s enough he knows I respect him very much indeed, with, or without a Florida tan.

Amitai